Debate with a Christian on Jesus (pbuh) being God and a part of Trinity.

The best way according to me, to refute claims of TRINITY and Jesus (pbuh) being God, by the Christians, is to ask the Christian, what according to him is TRINITY and how is Jesus part of it. Believe me, you get different answers from different Christians.

This is a part of the debate I had with a Christian named SULEMAN JOHN.

When asked about TRINITY he told me,

"God is a TRINITY which means that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are all divine, but are distinct persons, not three gods."

My counter question was,

" They are all divine, but are distinct persons, not three Gods? What does it mean? Does it mean that God was only one but resided in three distinct person?"

Now just go through the response he gave me,

HIS RESPONSE:

"I know this may be confusing,but it doesnt mean it is wrong.

It just like God exists,but athiests cannot understand.So according to us,God is a trinity but muslims cannot understand it.

Let me tell you what we believe

"God is ONE,but exists as THREE distinct yet inseperable persons"

Now take this example.LOVE is ONE emotion, right? But it is not ONE in itself !
Love cannot exist without the lover and the beloved,right?.So there is Love,the lover and the beloved,all in complete unity.
So we say God,His word(which became flesh) and His spirit exist as ONE complete unity."

MY REPLY:

"Brother, leave away the Muslims, understanding something which does not exist. Even in your Christian brothers, some accept this TRINITY,and some do not. Alhamdolillah, every sect of Islam, believes in Tawheed. There is no two doubt about it.

If this Trinity concept was so very important, then why didn't Jesus (pbuh) declare it clear cut that listen, God is ONE,but exists as THREE distinct yet inseperable persons?
So, that, if not the Muslims, at least all the Christians sect would have believed in it.

So you say God,His word(which became flesh) and His spirit exist as ONE complete unity.

Therefore Assuming your given theory of Love to be Right,

God cannot exist without His word and His spirit. Right?

Now, brother do you know, that if the lover, or the beloved dies, then, Love is incomplete?

Thus, when you Christians say that Jesus (pbuh) who according to you was His WORD, died on the cross, you will have to agree that God became incomplete and is incomplete, till now.

So, brother, do you agree that your God almighty, the part of TRINITY is now incomplete? Or do you believe that Jesus, was not crucified. Whichever, point you accept, it will be a stricking blow to your Christian belief.

If you agree that your God almighty, the part of TRINITY is now incomplete, then you are refuting your TRINITY claim, hence coming closer to the teachings of ISLAM.

If you agree that Jesus, was not crucified, then you are refuting your CRUCIFICTION claim, hence coming closer to the teachings of ISLAM.Yes brother, so according to you, there is Love,the lover and the beloved,all in complete unity and Love cannot exist without the lover and the beloved.

May God guide you to the truth.

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Gospel Of John 1:1- Does not prove TRINITY

Gospel According to John Chapter 1 verse 1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

First of all, it is quite obvious from simply reading the above verse that even in the very best case, this verse speaks only of a "Duality" not a "Trinity."

Even the most resolute conservative Christian will never claim to find in this verse any mention whatsoever of a "merging" of a Holy Ghost with God and "the Word." So even if we were to accept this verse at face value and just have faith, even then, we find ourselves commanded to believe in a "Duality" and not a "Trinity." But let us see if this verse does in fact even command us to believe in a "Duality."

I have already told you that In the "original" Greek manuscripts (Did the disciple John speak Greek?), "The Word" is only described as being "ton theos"(divine/a god) and not as being "ho theos" (The Divine/The God). Please visit : http://islamic-treasure.blogspot.com/2009/12/truth-about-gospel-of-john-chapter-1.html

If we look at a different verse, 2 Corinthians 4:4, we find the exact same word (ho theos) that was used in John 1:1 to describe God Almighty is now used to describe the devil, however, now the system of translation has been changed:

"the god of this world (the Devil) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not."

According to the system of the previous verse and the English language, the translation of the description of the Devil should also have been written as "The God" with a capital "G."

If Paul was inspired to use the exact same words to describe the Devil, then why should we change it? Why is "The God" translated as simply "the god" when referring to the devil, while "divine" is translated as the almighty "God" when referring to "The Word"? Are we now starting to get a glimpse of how the "translation" of the Bible took place?

Why this pick and choose, selection and translation?

A more faithful and correct translation of this verse John 1:1 would thus read:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine" (If you read the New World Translation of the Bible you will find exactly this wording).

Now that I have given the correct translation of the verse of John 1:1, let us go a little further in our study of the intended meaning of this verse John 1:1.

This verse was taken from the "Gospel of John." The very best person to ask to explain what is meant by a given statement is the author of that statement himself. So let us ask "John" what is his mental picture of God and Jesus (pbuh) which he wishes to convey to us:

John 13:16.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

So the author of John tells us that God is greater than Jesus. If the author of this Gospel did indeed wish us to understand that Jesus and God are "one and the same," then can someone be greater than himself? Similarly,

John 14:28.

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

Can someone "go" to himself? Can someone be "greater" than himself?

John 17:1.

"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:"

If John meant to tell us that "Jesus and God are one and the same" then shall we understand from this verse that God is saying to Himself "Self, glorify me so that I may glorify myself"? Does this sound like this is the message of John?

John 17:12.

"While I (Jesus) was with them in the world, I kept them in thy (God's) name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

If the author of John wanted us to believe that Jesus and God are one person then are we to understand from this verse that God is saying to Himself "Self, while I was in the world I kept them in your name, self. Those who I gave to myself I have kept ..."? Is this what the author intended us to understand from his writings?

John 17:24.

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

Similarly, did the author intend us to interpret this as "Self, I will that they also whom I have given myself be with me where I am; that they my behold my glory which I have given myself, for I loved myself before the foundation of the world"?

So, we begin to see that in order to understand the writings of a given author, it is necessary to not take a single quotation from him in a vacuum and then interpret his whole message based upon that one sentence (and a badly mistranslated version of that sentence at that).

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The Truth about Gospel Of John Chapter 1 Verse 1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

This verse is one of the most famous verses quoted by Christians when they want to show that Jesus is God. First we will look at the English translation of the verse as seen in some different versions of the Bible.

Different Translations of John 1:1

King James Version

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New International Version

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Douay-Rheims Bible

In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

The above are the different translations of the concerned verse as seen in the different versions of the Bible. When moving from one translation or the other, this verse is generally translated in the same manner in all the versions. However there is a certain level of deception in these translations.

Greek Text of John 1:1

The Greek Text

εν αρχη ην ο λογοϚ, και ο λογοϚ ην προϚ τον θεον, και θεοϚ ην ο λογοϚ.

Pay close attention to the words in the bold text. I will translate these texts below:

Transliteration, Pronunciation and Translation

• Greek word: ο

Transliteration: ho

Pronunciation: ho

Translation: the

• Greek word: λογοϚ

Transliteration: logos

Pronunciation: log'-os

Translation: word

The Mistranslated Word ‘θεοϚ’

In the above example, ‘ho’ is basically an article. In the English language there are 2 articles, ‘the’ which is a definite article and ‘a’ which is an indefinite article. In Greek however there is only 1 article which is definite.

When ‘logos’ is put after ‘ho’ it becomes ‘the word’ and with the absence of ‘ho’, it remains as ‘word’. However this is not where the great deception really is. The part with the great deception will come below.

Greek word: θεοϚ

Transliterated: theos

Pronounced: theh’-os

This word ‘theos’ does not only mean ‘God’ with a capital ‘G’. According to the “Thayer’s Greek Definitions”, the first meaning of this word ‘theos’ is written to be:

“A god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities.”

One of the meanings of this word as explained by Strong’s Greek Dictionary is:

“A deity.”

As seen above, ‘theos’ also means ‘god’ i.e. any god. Greek has no such law like English where we can differentiate between ‘god’ and ‘God’ by the use of the capital letter or small letter. Hence to indicate whether ‘theos’ is referring to any ‘god’ or ‘God’, the language uses ‘articles’.

Depending on whether a word is the ‘subject’ or the ‘direct object (accusative)’ in a sentence, ‘ο’ (ho) or ‘τον’ (ton) is used respectively.

Verifying the English Translation

Do note that when ‘theos’ is the subject, then it is written as ‘θεοϚ’ (theos) and when it is the direct object (accusative) then it is written as ‘θεον’ (theon). In the Greek text of the verse John 1:1, it can be seen that there is an article before ‘θεον’ and the text is thus written as ‘τον θεον’ which is transliterated to beton theon’ and should be translated as ‘the God’ or one can even translate it as only ‘God’. The point is that using the definite article, the word refers to God and not to the other meanings of the word ‘theos’ i.e. ‘a god’ or any god or goddess.

In the second instance where we see ‘theos’, it is written as ‘θεοϚ’ and there is no article before it. If this word would have been referring to ‘God’, then we would have seen the article ‘o’ (ho) before it. The article ‘ho’ is used before the word if it is the subject. However we see that there is an absence of a definite article. Thus it means that in this place, ‘theos’ should be translated as ‘god’ or ‘a god’ and not as ‘God’.

Correct Translation

The correct translation for John 1:1 would then be as such:

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was a god.

However we find that Christendom tries to put a veil over this problem in the Bible and all of them falsely translate the verses in a way to imply by hook or crook that the Word was also God.

Random Translations by Christendom

Not only does Christendom not translated John 1:1 properly, it is seen that they have been randomly translating the terms ‘ho theos’ and ‘ton theon’. For example lets take a look at 2 Corinthians 4:4.

In that verse ‘ho theos’ is translated as ‘the god’ with a small ‘g’ to refer to Satan. In the same verse ‘ton theon’ is translated as ‘God’. This is a clear ‘pick and choose’ tactic being practiced by Christendom.

Conclusion

The Christian world is trying hard to cover up the correct wordings of this verse. As it is the only verse in the Bible which came closest to the concept of Trinity, 1 John 5:7 (“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”), has been detected as a fabrication and a corruption in the Bible by biblical scholars and kept out of the later versions of the Bible. This verse in truth also does not support Jesus’ divinity. So what we find is that as more investigations are made into the Greek texts of the Bible, Jesus is seen to be losing the “divinity factor”. However it is up to the Christian brothers and sister to realize the games that the Churches are playing with them.

It is an undeniable fact that the Bible got corrupted over time, so our brothers should leave the corrupted Old and New Testaments and come towards the uncorrupted Final Testament – Al Quran.

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