Debate with a Christian on Jesus (pbuh) being God and a part of Trinity.

The best way according to me, to refute claims of TRINITY and Jesus (pbuh) being God, by the Christians, is to ask the Christian, what according to him is TRINITY and how is Jesus part of it. Believe me, you get different answers from different Christians.

This is a part of the debate I had with a Christian named SULEMAN JOHN.

When asked about TRINITY he told me,

"God is a TRINITY which means that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are all divine, but are distinct persons, not three gods."

My counter question was,

" They are all divine, but are distinct persons, not three Gods? What does it mean? Does it mean that God was only one but resided in three distinct person?"

Now just go through the response he gave me,

HIS RESPONSE:

"I know this may be confusing,but it doesnt mean it is wrong.

It just like God exists,but athiests cannot understand.So according to us,God is a trinity but muslims cannot understand it.

Let me tell you what we believe

"God is ONE,but exists as THREE distinct yet inseperable persons"

Now take this example.LOVE is ONE emotion, right? But it is not ONE in itself !
Love cannot exist without the lover and the beloved,right?.So there is Love,the lover and the beloved,all in complete unity.
So we say God,His word(which became flesh) and His spirit exist as ONE complete unity."

MY REPLY:

"Brother, leave away the Muslims, understanding something which does not exist. Even in your Christian brothers, some accept this TRINITY,and some do not. Alhamdolillah, every sect of Islam, believes in Tawheed. There is no two doubt about it.

If this Trinity concept was so very important, then why didn't Jesus (pbuh) declare it clear cut that listen, God is ONE,but exists as THREE distinct yet inseperable persons?
So, that, if not the Muslims, at least all the Christians sect would have believed in it.

So you say God,His word(which became flesh) and His spirit exist as ONE complete unity.

Therefore Assuming your given theory of Love to be Right,

God cannot exist without His word and His spirit. Right?

Now, brother do you know, that if the lover, or the beloved dies, then, Love is incomplete?

Thus, when you Christians say that Jesus (pbuh) who according to you was His WORD, died on the cross, you will have to agree that God became incomplete and is incomplete, till now.

So, brother, do you agree that your God almighty, the part of TRINITY is now incomplete? Or do you believe that Jesus, was not crucified. Whichever, point you accept, it will be a stricking blow to your Christian belief.

If you agree that your God almighty, the part of TRINITY is now incomplete, then you are refuting your TRINITY claim, hence coming closer to the teachings of ISLAM.

If you agree that Jesus, was not crucified, then you are refuting your CRUCIFICTION claim, hence coming closer to the teachings of ISLAM.Yes brother, so according to you, there is Love,the lover and the beloved,all in complete unity and Love cannot exist without the lover and the beloved.

May God guide you to the truth.

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Gospel Of John 1:1- Does not prove TRINITY

Gospel According to John Chapter 1 verse 1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

First of all, it is quite obvious from simply reading the above verse that even in the very best case, this verse speaks only of a "Duality" not a "Trinity."

Even the most resolute conservative Christian will never claim to find in this verse any mention whatsoever of a "merging" of a Holy Ghost with God and "the Word." So even if we were to accept this verse at face value and just have faith, even then, we find ourselves commanded to believe in a "Duality" and not a "Trinity." But let us see if this verse does in fact even command us to believe in a "Duality."

I have already told you that In the "original" Greek manuscripts (Did the disciple John speak Greek?), "The Word" is only described as being "ton theos"(divine/a god) and not as being "ho theos" (The Divine/The God). Please visit : http://islamic-treasure.blogspot.com/2009/12/truth-about-gospel-of-john-chapter-1.html

If we look at a different verse, 2 Corinthians 4:4, we find the exact same word (ho theos) that was used in John 1:1 to describe God Almighty is now used to describe the devil, however, now the system of translation has been changed:

"the god of this world (the Devil) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not."

According to the system of the previous verse and the English language, the translation of the description of the Devil should also have been written as "The God" with a capital "G."

If Paul was inspired to use the exact same words to describe the Devil, then why should we change it? Why is "The God" translated as simply "the god" when referring to the devil, while "divine" is translated as the almighty "God" when referring to "The Word"? Are we now starting to get a glimpse of how the "translation" of the Bible took place?

Why this pick and choose, selection and translation?

A more faithful and correct translation of this verse John 1:1 would thus read:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine" (If you read the New World Translation of the Bible you will find exactly this wording).

Now that I have given the correct translation of the verse of John 1:1, let us go a little further in our study of the intended meaning of this verse John 1:1.

This verse was taken from the "Gospel of John." The very best person to ask to explain what is meant by a given statement is the author of that statement himself. So let us ask "John" what is his mental picture of God and Jesus (pbuh) which he wishes to convey to us:

John 13:16.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

So the author of John tells us that God is greater than Jesus. If the author of this Gospel did indeed wish us to understand that Jesus and God are "one and the same," then can someone be greater than himself? Similarly,

John 14:28.

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

Can someone "go" to himself? Can someone be "greater" than himself?

John 17:1.

"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:"

If John meant to tell us that "Jesus and God are one and the same" then shall we understand from this verse that God is saying to Himself "Self, glorify me so that I may glorify myself"? Does this sound like this is the message of John?

John 17:12.

"While I (Jesus) was with them in the world, I kept them in thy (God's) name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

If the author of John wanted us to believe that Jesus and God are one person then are we to understand from this verse that God is saying to Himself "Self, while I was in the world I kept them in your name, self. Those who I gave to myself I have kept ..."? Is this what the author intended us to understand from his writings?

John 17:24.

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

Similarly, did the author intend us to interpret this as "Self, I will that they also whom I have given myself be with me where I am; that they my behold my glory which I have given myself, for I loved myself before the foundation of the world"?

So, we begin to see that in order to understand the writings of a given author, it is necessary to not take a single quotation from him in a vacuum and then interpret his whole message based upon that one sentence (and a badly mistranslated version of that sentence at that).

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THE OFTEN MISUNDERSTOOD VERSE OF THE HOLY QUR'AN

Al-Qur'an, Surah Aal-E-Imran Chapter 3 verse 169

نوُقَزْرُي ْمِهِّبَر َدْنِع ٌءاَيْحَأ ْلَب اًتاَوْمَأ ِهَّللا ِليِبَس ِفي اوُلِتُق َنيِذَّلا ََّﺒﻦَسْحَت لاَو

Wa Lā Taĥsabanna Al-Ladhīna Qutilū Fī Sabīli Allāhi 'Amwātāan Bal 'Aĥ?yā'un `Inda Rabbihim Yurzaqūna

"Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord"

Anyone who reads this verse of the Holy Qur'an, without knowing the reason behind the revelation of this verse and the hadith explaining it, will ultimately come to the conclusion that the Martyrs are very much alive in this world, they are not dead.

The same message is repeated in the Holy Qur'an Surah Al-Baqara Chapter 2 verse 154:

وَلا تَقُولُوا لِمَنْ يُقْتَلُ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتٌ بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ وَلَكِنْ لا تَشْعُرُونَ

Wa Lā Taqūlū Liman Yuqtalu Fī Sabīli Allāhi 'Amwātun Bal 'Aĥyā'un Wa Lakin Lā Tash`urūna

"And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not"

There is nothing wrong with this verse, nor with the conclusion drawn, except one thing. The martyrs are living and finding their sustenance in the presence of Allah(SWT), but NOT in this world. They are alive in Paradise. The misunderstood concept which almost many Muslims have, is that, they are living and alive in this world.To understand this we need to know, the reason behind the revelation of this verse and the hadith explaining it.

What was the reason behind the revelation of this verse?

If we carefully analyze the context of the verse which starts from verse 166, we find that Allah(SWT), was narrating about the reason behind the defeat of the Muslims in the battle of Uhud. When, the hypocrites, the so called Muslims were told to fight in the way of Allah(SWT) they lied that they knew not how to fight (Qur'an 3:167).More over, while sitting at ease, they where commenting on those who went forward to fight in Allah's way. They were taunting them saying that, had they listened to them, they would not have been slain (Qur'an 3:168). Seeing this unbelief, Allah (swt) rebukes such hypocrites, the so called Muslims, by saying that “Avert death from your own selves, if you speak the truth.” (Qur'an 3:168). Then Allah (swt) rebukingly tells them that,"Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead..."(Qur'an 3:169).

Authentic Hadith explaining this verse.

The sahabaas (companions of the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) also had the same doubt about this verse.

Abu Dawud : (Kitab Al-Jihad): Book 14 : Hadith 2514

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: When your brethren were smitten at the battle of Uhud, Allah put their spirits in the crops of green birds which go down to the rivers of Paradise, eat its fruit and nestle in lamps of gold in the shade of the Throne. Then when they experienced the sweetness of their food, drink and rest, they asked: Who will tell our brethren about us that we are alive in Paradise provided with provision, in order that they might not be disinterested in jihad and recoil in war? Allah Most High said: I shall tell them about you; so Allah sent down; "And do not consider those who have been killed in Allah's path..."

Sahih Muslim : (Kitab Al-Imara): Book 20 : Hadith 4651

It has been narrated on the authority of Masruq Who said: We asked 'Abdullah about the Qur'anic verse:" Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead..." (iii. 169). He said: We asked the meaning of the verse (from the Holy Prophet) who said: The souls, of the martyrs live in the bodies of green birds who have their nests in chandeliers hung from the throne of the Almighty. They eat the fruits of Paradise from wherever they like and then nestle in these chandeliers. Once their Lord cast a glance at them and said: Do ye want anything? They said: What more shall we desire? We eat the fruit of Paradise from wherever we like. Their Lord asked them the same question thrice. When they saw that they will continue to be asked and not left (without answering the question). they said: O Lord, we wish that Thou mayest return our souls to our bodies so that we may be slain in Thy way once again. When He (Allah) saw that they had no need, they were left (to their joy in heaven).

Thus we find that to rebuke the hypocrites and to inspire the believers to fight in Allah's way & in order that they might not be disinterested in Jihad, Allah revealed this verse.

"Every soul is living. Soul of no human beings die, it just tastes death.(Qur'an 3:185,21:35,29:57). A martyr's soul is living in Paradise, provided with provision, while a normal human soul is alive, but in a suspended state known in Arabic as the Barzakh."

The Martyrs i.e the believer's who are slain in Allah's way are no more a part of this world i.e; they are dead in this world. They are alive & living in Paradise. Their world is different from ours so they cannot hear us, nor can they talk, nor can they walk, nor can they hold anything of this world. They have no contact with this world, because there is a barrier between this life and the next. "...it will be too late because there will be a barrier between them and the world they have just left till the Day they are raised to life again.(Qur'an 23:99-100 ) and Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. Allah can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.(Qur'an 35:22)

Read the Qur'an with understanding. Don't just believe what the imaams say or what others say.

"Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding." (Qur'an 39:18)

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